46 Comments Add your own

• 1. Audrey  |  July 13th, 2009 at 10:42 pm

  Never commented before, but well-fucking-said. I agree with it all.

• 2. shriek house  |  July 13th, 2009 at 10:59 pm

  Oh hells yes, if I could have outsourced pregnancy to my husband it would have been GLORIOUS. Hermaphroditic engineering arrangements: hmmm. Ok, we’ll need angel investors, some scientists, some volunteers… uh, what else?

• 3. Artemisia  |  July 13th, 2009 at 11:03 pm

  Oh, dear Lord. “HERMAPHRODITE ENGINEERING.”

  That there is some fine word smithery. I do love your brain.

• 4. Lippy  |  July 13th, 2009 at 11:06 pm

  Oh, I had a dream the other night that my husband started lactating, and I was all, hell yeah get her latched on! Then I woke up and was still all me.

• 5. anna  |  July 14th, 2009 at 12:26 am

  This post is exactly why I enjoy reading you so much. You are rad.

• 6. Carmen  |  July 14th, 2009 at 12:42 am

  Oh my. You’re more connected in the Twitter-verse than I am, so I haven’t see new moms feel bullied, but if there’s anything that a new mom DOESN”T need, it’s that. Argh. Makes my blood boil. The sleep deprivation is enough to make anyone’s confidence falter so the ONLY THING they should get is cheerleading. And my MIL is one of the non-cheerleaders, as I mentioned before – nursed her last 3 kids until they were 4 or older & wanted me to do the same. Umm, no. I nursed my son until he was 18 months – then I stopped offering & he never asked and so weaning was easy. I’m nursing my 9 mo old now and will do the same when the time comes. No kindergarten for me either. Sorry – end rant.

  For someone with 2 kids that refused bottles, the mere thought of having someone else that could nurse the baby is just…well…words are not enough to convey the pure unadulterated joy I would feel at being able to have a long bath, or go shopping, or go anywhere for that matter. I would have agreed wholeheartedly about the pregnancy thing after my first pregnancy (vomiting several times a day until week 38, sciatica, carpal tunnel, cankles, etc.) except that my second pregnancy was glorious (no vomiting, no other yucky symptoms at all). I wish everyone the same luck at that!

• 7. Heather  |  July 14th, 2009 at 1:20 am

  Do you ever have days where totally random things keep happening?

  I live in Perth, Western Australia but was born and raised in New Zealand. Yesterday (I had a visitor from NZ) I went to the Perth Mint and there, in their vault room was a piece of gold laiden rock from my home town of 5000 people! Six thousand kilometres from home I found a piece of my home town from another country!

  Then today I sit down to read here (which I always do but never comment (sorry!) and you talk about that peke moe thing. It’s based in the town (Ruakaka) I spent all my school holidays as a teenager (my dad was a highschool teacher in that town)! I’m having such a weird few days lol.

• 8. Kristina  |  July 14th, 2009 at 7:13 am

  Great, great post. That’s all. Just freaking’ fantastic.

• 9. The Maiden Metallurgist  |  July 14th, 2009 at 7:47 am

  That was a great bullet- or dash- list.

  And yeah, Eric. With the short hair. Yeah.

• 10. jonniker  |  July 14th, 2009 at 7:50 am

  Carmen — I responded to you via e-mail, but also wanted to add that after the whole thing went down, I started, in a fit of pique, madly clicking around those people’s Twitter accounts and lo, they do this ALL THE TIME. To NEW MOTHERS who are struggling. It’s … it’s awful. And they do it coldly, in 140 characters, “Supplementing unnecessary. Damages bfing relationship permanently.” Like they know ANYTHING about these people’s situation. Unless they have a list of the kid’s birth weights and growth patterns, not to mention the mom’s complete medical history, they should butt out.

  Or they throw out SIDS statistics, basically threatening formula feeding moms with SIDS. SIDS!

  It’s awesome. And I don’t know why I care, except that I’m a pretty strong, opinionated BREASTFEEDING person (HA HA HA) and *I* was really bothered by it. If they’re just throwing shit out there to people willy-nilly, oh my God. Fury.

• 11. kakaty  |  July 14th, 2009 at 8:17 am

  Damn, girl I love your posts. I had a “Miss No-Bottle” myself and therefore pushed the original goal of “get to 6 months” to holy hell you are 17 months old, drink from a goddamn cup already! Outsourcing would have been all kinds of awesome. She was also swaddled until she was like 9 months old…because it worked and I’m all about the path of least resistance when it comes to sleeping. I got some crazy funny looks with a big ol’ 9 month old baby in the largest swaddle-me on the market (reinforced by me with extra Velcro for even more straight-jacket like appearance!)
  And HERMAPHRODITE ENGINEERING – ha! I would love to see who comes by this site based on THAT Google search gem.

• 12. Kristin  |  July 14th, 2009 at 8:33 am

  I also had pretty much every baby carrier on the market and agree with you that the only ones that really worked were the Bjorn and the Ergo. However, I was seriously not coordinated enough to use the Ergo without help. I remember feeling like you needed an extra arm to latch it in the back? I don’t know how people do it alone. The Bjorn was perfect for us, and I was so sad when Will grew out of it. Maybe I’ll be able to figure out the Ergo with this new baby!

• 13. Rhi  |  July 14th, 2009 at 8:44 am

  I’m a huge fan of Eric’s new haircut. But, I CANNOT stand the suspense over what the hell Maryann is. WHAT IS SHE?

• 14. Shelly  |  July 14th, 2009 at 9:19 am

  Ditto on the bald envy for your lesbian friends. Sharing pregnancy and lactation?! Oh my holy hell, that sounds unbelievable. I thought I had it good when we had to bottle feed my second one, but I still had to pump (HATE) so that we had milk to go in the bottle. And it sure would put an end to my hubby wanting “5 or 6″ kids! Or at least share the burden.

• 15. Ali  |  July 14th, 2009 at 9:24 am

  The series has even managed to make me not hate Anna Paquin. A feat indeed. —-YES!

• 16. gorillabuns  |  July 14th, 2009 at 9:36 am

  if i have to hear the way bill says “SooooKaaaa” one more time, I’m going to vomit.

  now, Eric? I’d totally have a vampire baby with him. if it were possible. is it even possible?

• 17. Jeanne  |  July 14th, 2009 at 9:52 am

  Love, love, LOVE Eric too! I read the books before watching the series, so it took me a while to adjust to all of the actors, but now they all feel totally right to me. I still get confused by the plot line though, it’s pretty far removed from the books.

• 18. Jen  |  July 14th, 2009 at 10:00 am

  I agree with anna. This is why this is my favorite blog.

  I have to be honest though and tell you that I think the Peke Moe looks like a little baby potato sack! Cute in a very strange way. Since bedtime has started to resemble WrestleMania around here, I’m getting the message that my daughter is just about done being swaddled as well. The last two nights I’ve just swaddled her from the chest down to keep her warm, and she seems to be doing really well.

• 19. Jess  |  July 14th, 2009 at 10:18 am

  I am with you on the gay marriage thing. I posted something on my own blog to the same effect. I try to be tolerant, but my tolerance does not extend to bigotry. End of story.

  Also, I’ve heard of the occasional man inducing lactation? Perhaps Torsten will be willing to look into it.

• 20. Nimble  |  July 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am

  This is about the names discussion on the last post. I thoroughly enjoyed all the “pronounced dash” anecdotes but have learned today that it’s an urban myth, see the snopes.com entry

  Oh well.

  I am appalled to hear about that breastfeeding bullying on twitter. That’s just godawful.

• 21. Christine  |  July 14th, 2009 at 11:07 am

  Gbuns, OHMYFREAKING GOD. Tony does the Sookaaaah to me all the time as maybe the most obnoxious thing he can think of. GRAH.

  And oh how I love that you’re posting more frequently. It warms my little heart. Where would I be without the phrase “Hermaphrodite Engineering”? Where?

• 22. jonniker  |  July 14th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

  Nimble: Yep, I’d heard that since too. HOWEVER, a few things come to mind in relation to it.

  First, I’ve heard it positioned as a racist thing more than once, and for the record, I’ll tell you that all the dumbass names I personally know of (Psymon, Destynee spring to mind) were named so by dumbass white people. So it didn’t dawn on me that it was in any way, shape or form a slur against African Americans. Not that you said this, but Snopes did, as did a few other sources, and man, I just had to clear that up.

  Secondly, I gotta say, I’m somewhat inclined to believe it, in some cases. I mean, people were going to name their child FELONY FEVER VICE. And — AND! — some kid in my hometown was named Adolf! And his sister, Aryan Nation! That is mos def not an urban myth.

  People are so, so dumb. It scares me.

  The names of clitoris, chlamydia, placenta, etc. I’m not convinced. At all.

  Oh, and Kristin, I can get the Ergo for the front load myself, but not the back. I’m too scared.

• 23. Jen W.  |  July 14th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

  I agree about True Blood. Have you read the book series? It’s pretty entertaining.

• 24. -R-  |  July 14th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

  I have personally seen the birth announcement for J-er (Jaydasher), for what it’s worth.

  I clicked on one of the Twitter profiles for a crazy breastfeeding advocate when that whole thing happened and saw that she called herself an “intactivist” too. That ridiculous title is hilarious. It’s ok to advocate for what you believe in, but attacking people on Twitter is not the way to do it. And I am just going to come out and say that I don’t think breastfeeding a 5-year-old kid is necessary or appropriate.

  We love the Ergo, and it works for both 5’2″ me and my 6’5″ husband.

• 25. Lu  |  July 14th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

  Too funny. I sometimes wish I were attracted to women, because some days I could sure use a wife. I have a husband…but , well, you know. He’s no wife!

• 26. Kristabella  |  July 14th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

  I don’t know if I could really be friends, online or otherwise, with anyone who breastfeeds their child until AGE 5. THERE! I SAID IT! IT IS WRONG!

  Also, I once did a review and when they linked to all the reviews of this book, mine was mysteriously off the list. Even though I tried to be nice, but that book was BAD.

  That was my first and last review! Although, if someone offered me free wine for a review tomorrow, I’d probably take it.

• 27. Caitlin  |  July 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

  Jonna, I really love this post. It is mind-boggling to me that people can see the denial of marriage rights to gay people as anything other than bigotry. I think Jess said this once and I was so glad to see I wasn’t the only one who thought so: In 50 years (hopefully less) we’ll look back on this like we do the treatment of African Americans, and be appalled at ourselves.

  Also: I once dated (pretty seriously – we lived together) a guy who had been breastfed until he was at LEAST 5, possibly older. He had so many issues that I think stemmed from it, that it makes me sad to think about it. I once asked him about it, but he refused to discuss it. He was totally ashamed and uncomfortable about it. I just feel like at that age, it isn’t necessary and it was less about him and more about his mother. And the other children she wanted but couldn’t have…although, if you are breastfeeding can you conceive? I don’t know. Like I said, dude, it was messed up.

• 28. Jen  |  July 14th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

  I am back to embarrassingly admit that I was breastfed until I was 3. I am the youngest of 9 children, and I think my mother must have been having a hard time letting go or something, because THREE? I was old enough to ask, “Can we go home and do the other side?” while in the grocery store. And oh, how my mom loves to tell that story. EMBARRASSING.

• 29. Traci  |  July 14th, 2009 at 7:15 pm

  Awesome, awesome post. Agree with everything, except that I don’t watch True Blood, and thus still hate Anna Paquin. Twitter stalking new moms and bombing them with bf facts seems like a particularly unhappy kind of bad karma to be collecting, I think.

• 30. Jo Anna  |  July 14th, 2009 at 9:06 pm

  if you only knew how much i needed you today.

  thank you.

• 31. Leah  |  July 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

  Awesomeness abounds here as usual.

• 32. Leah  |  July 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

  p.s. I’m curious to hear about the Peke Moe since Wombat absolutely can’t sleep longer than ten minutes without being swaddled (unless he’s in my arms, which is not the best use of my time, god love him).

• 33. Anon  |  July 15th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

  Wow. People who disagree with you on the grounds of religious principle are bigots. Strong words dear friend. Strong words. Good luck in all your endeavors. Unsubscribed.

• 34. jonniker  |  July 15th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

  Sorry, Jessie. Yeah, I do think it’s a bigoted viewpoint, religious or no, and I think the “sanctity” of marriage based on religion is crap. I don’t do well seeing my friends marginalized, and I believe if Jesus were here to talk about this, he’d be down with my viewpoint. He seemed like a pretty accepting guy.

  I see why churches don’t want to be forced to PERFORM gay marriages, in the same way that the New Hampshire governor insisted the law be written to protect them — I get that. I don’t like it, but I get it. No church should be forced to do something outside the scope of its beliefs.

  However, I don’t see it any differently than not allowing any other minority to marry. I’d say the same if you believed African Americans couldn’t marry, which you would, you know, never say. Do you have gay friends? How would YOU like it if you couldn’t do something for no other reason than you are who you are?

  Unsubscribe away! I knew that was coming from some people, and really, I am fine with it. I have opinions just like you do.

• 35. anon  |  July 15th, 2009 at 10:01 pm

  Jennifer,

  You are entitled to your opinions just as much as I am. The difference is, is that it’s socially acceptable for people who are of your viewpoint to go around calling everyone who disagrees you bigots or ignorant or stupid or uniformed or racist. Whatever. And I’m a dancer. Professional dancer. So hell yeah I know a shitload of gay individuals and love em love em love me. But hey, I’m a bigot. I’m against homosexual marriage. I’m against polygamy. I’m against marriages between minors and adults. I’m against all sorts of things that are intrinsically interwoven into my belief system. And I’m so tired of being bullied out of saying what I think. What the majority of Americans think. What the president of the united states, of whom i KNOW you voted for thinks. He’s a bigot too though right? Just as he’s against African Americans marrying.
  And honestly I wouldn’t have unsubscribed if you hadn’t thrown it in my face. Opinions are one thing, name calling and belittling other viewpoints is something different altogether. I see above that jess talked about how she discussed it on her blog. I read that post and thought it was thoughtful and respectful. It can be done.

  And how would I like it if I COULDN’T DO SOMETHING FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN WHAT I AM? Jennifer you know absolutely nothing about me. Nothing. Have I experienced bigotry in my life. Oh yeah.. Alot of oh yeah. So maybe that’s why it’s a little touchy for me when people start throwing around insults when they have absolutely no idea. I’m not sorry we disagree, I’m just sorry that we can’t disagree in a respectful fashion.

• 36. jonniker  |  July 15th, 2009 at 10:05 pm

  My name is Jonna, not Jennifer. And if you have experienced bigotry then it is even sadder that you would go on to perpetuate it.

  Also, you may “love ‘em love ‘em love ‘em” with regards to your “gay individuals,” but if I had to guess, I’d say they don’t love you, and if they know your stance, they probably whisper behind your back about it. Especially if you consider their right to marry, as two consenting adults who love each other, to be on par with polygamy and statutory rape.

• 37. Swistle  |  July 16th, 2009 at 6:46 am

  Whenever I start to get weepy and frustrated about the gay marriage thing, I just cast my mind back on the interracial marriage situation, because I am certain the gay marriage situation will follow the same path. First people were saying allowing a black man to marry a white woman was just another step toward allowing people to marry farm animals, children, or door knobs. Then people called it a threat to regular marriage. Then people claimed their views had nothing to do with racism, because, heck, their NEIGHBOR was a colored man, and a really upstanding guy, too! Then the law was changed to allow interracial marriage. Now everyone is embarrassed that it was ever against the law, and everyone denies ever being against it.

  In the meantime, anyone who protests against discrimination gets called disrespectful. Oh, dear, are we disrespectful toward violence and bigotry and horrible horrible analogies involving pedophilia? Dear, dear, how…..wrong….of us? I do think I’ll go right ahead being disrespectful about such viewpoints, if standing up for what I believe is right and against what I believe is hateful and mean and dehumanizing is disrespectful. I notice that when anti-gay-marriage people stand up for what they believe is right, and use the pedophilia analogies, they don’t consider themselves disrespectful.

• 38. Swistle  |  July 16th, 2009 at 6:53 am

  Oh! And how could I have forgotten the most important thing, which is that it would be SO AWESOME to share breastfeeding/pregnancy duties. SO AWESOME. In return I will, of course, shoulder the burden of sleeping through the night and keeping my shape.

• 39. kdiddy  |  July 16th, 2009 at 8:43 am

  I am going to demand that you start joining the discussions that come about from my True Blood recaps on MamaPop:

  http://www.mamapop.com/mamapop/true-blood-recap/

  Interesting stuff.

• 40. Suze  |  July 16th, 2009 at 10:32 am

  Jonna, I just wrote a long-winded retort to anon, all huffy and upset, mentioning my situation and my opinions on this topic. But then I read your well-worded response, and realized I couldn’t have said it better myself.

  Great post!

• 41. anon  |  July 16th, 2009 at 11:18 am

  Ahhhh.. I really let this stuff get to me. I shouldn’t. But I do. I didn’t sleep at all last night. And I cried, more than once, and I’m sure we’ll talk about it in my therapy session in about 2 hours. Sorry about the Jennifer thing, I kicked myself as soon as I pushed submit. And my name’s not Jessie or Anon either. (you know pseudo email addresses belonging to other people lest you get called out–shocking that people would do that when the assumption is that it’s “hidden” huh?) I too suspect that you are correct about the Obama thing, but hey if it’s bigotry and he believes strongly about it I say hypocrite and pansy ass for not standing up for what you believe in. But I suppose that applies to 99.9% of the politicians out there so we’ll just let that slide.

  And you’re wrong. Two of my best friends in the world are gay, and they love me beyond comprehension and don’t talk about me behind my back. We’ve had honest discussions about this, and gasp, they respect our rights to disagree. They believe in things that I don’t agree with, and vice versa. And guess what, I don’t talk about them behind there backs either. It’s called respectful and loving relationships.

  You can say what you want, and call me a bigot and what have you, but it doesn’t change anything. My husband’s a hotshot lawyer and I guarantee that if the law allows for homosexual marriage, it has to allow for polygamy. Period. And after all, isn’t love love? Who are you to judge that it’s wrong for a man (or woman) to be married to two other people. Or for a sixteen year old to be married to a twenty three year old without parental consent? I’m just saying. Do I personally have a REAL issue with homosexual marriage. Honestly, no. I don’t. But I have an issue with the effects thereof. And there are always consequences. As much as we don’t like to believe in them anymore, they still exist. Even if we close our eyes and pretend otherwise.
  I appreciated your near respectful post in response to our sparring. It was well said. And again, almost respectful. I’m not going to go fuck myself, sorry, but I am going to therapy and heh isn’t that almost as good? Best wishes.

• 42. GingerB  |  July 16th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

  I had to chime in with a “Hell ya Sister!” because, Jonniker, you rock. I’ll go on a milk shooting assault with you too becauase I work damn hard at this milk making and even though I couldn’t nurse my babies long because they were lazy hospital babies who like easy peasy bottles, I became a freakin’ exlusive pumper and I know how hard it is and why women can’t do it – it sucks! And no one should sit around telling you how you fail as a mother, ever, unless its about the meth you gave the baby or similar intentional harm. Motherhood is plenty hard without criticism. Please give your friends my good wishes, and some more bald envy from Utah, the home of the Kiss-in.

• 43. jonniker  |  July 16th, 2009 at 9:11 pm

  Oookay, Jessie, I’ll bite, and tell you what I honestly think about this (yes, I’m aware that’s not your name, but calling you Anon is just stupid).

  Is it religion or your fear of the disintegration of the institution of marriage to include polygamists, minors (and … I don’t know what else)? Your first statement seemed to suggest religion, but now you have no real personal issue with it … other than that. Which makes me think it’s a personal concern that you are having difficulty coming to grips with and these other reasons are getting scapegoated. Now, I will fully cop to maybe being wrong, as I don’t know you, and it’s a tough read from here. But I would find it more palatable that it was a genuine religious objection than a milder version of what I jokingly referred to in my post — that if gays are allowed to marry who ELSE is next? Five year olds? Warren Jeffs?

  But! I’ll address what I think of your points without expectation that I’m going to change your mind:

  – To suggest that marriage would be legally extended to minors is, to me, laughable. No, love is not love in that case. Adults — and by that, I mean people over the age of 18 — are allowed to do MANY things that minors are not allowed to do, and yet we don’t ban those things. Simple things, like buying cigarettes and alcohol, come to mind, but it can also be extended to something very important, if taken as seriously as it’s intended: the right to vote. Should we take away the right for everyone to vote? Should we take away the right for gays to vote? Because if gays are voting, next thing you know, EVERYONE will want to vote! Even children!

  It just doesn’t hold a drop of water. Age of consent exists, as I said, for many, many things, and opening up the rights to two consenting adults to do something that people under the age of 18 aren’t allowed to do ANYWAY won’t change that.

  Onto polygamy: no disrespect to your hotshot husband, but one lawyer’s opinion is … one lawyer’s opinion. I could come up with 5,678 lawyers who agree with your husband and 5,678 lawyers who disagree with him. If lawyers were always right, there would be no need for … well, for lawyers. Or court. And all that stuff. I mean, really. I have a family full of them, and nine times out of ten, they disagree on a lot of shit. And judges … same thing. If answers/outcomes were so clear cut, then every time a supreme court justice leaves the bench, it would be no big deal. They could replace them with anyone, right? Any lawyer! Oh, look! A smart one! You, there!

  However, for shits and giggles, I did ask my lawyer neighbor this evening about your hubby’s “guarantee” and he basically chuckled at the very idea of it, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the astonishing lack of groundswell popular support for polygamy AND the fact that the Mormon church would never — and could never — come out and reverse their position without a serious public relations problem. Yes, there could be a lawsuit, but the idea that it would make it to the courts AND be supported is … very slim. And, for the record, not that it’s a lawyer pissing match, but he’s currently a clerk for a federal judge — his second such clerkship, and as you probably know, law clerks are very influential on, and work closely with, federal judges, who actually decide this kind of thing. But again, that could mean shit, just like your husband’s opinion.

  (For those reading along who might not know, a law clerk is not an administrative clerk — rather, they are an actual lawyer. Usually a very, very good one. Clerkships are tough as balls to get, and are usually a stepping stone to a federal judgeship or, in the case of my friend, a federal prosecutor.)

  That being said, I have deeply considered the issues of polygamy under these circumstances (and laughably, it was Roman Grant on Big Love who made me think about it. HA) and in theory, there could be worse things, and by that I mean if there are consenting, mature adults who truly want to live their life that way, I say … well, I say who am I to stop them? However, what is mostly illegal and deplorable about polygamy is the off-the-wheels fundamentalist sects that generally subscribe to it, and that, clearly, I have deep moral objections to. But again, I really scoff at the idea that it will become a genuine issue and if it does, we can deal with that when it comes. But random-ass “what if” scenarios are not nearly enough to make me reconsider my stance on gay marriage for even a fraction of a second.

• 44. anon  |  July 17th, 2009 at 10:33 am

  Brilliantly said. Briliant. I didn’t expect you to bite, but was curious. I didn’t want this to become a public bashing at my expense, but did wonder if we could hold a honest, kind, discussion ourselves about it–as we both feel so passionately towards the issue.

  Point one. Completely conceded. Though in Amsterdam they are seriously considering that very thing. Lived there. Crazy city.

  And I shouldn’t have brought husband into the discussion. You are 100% right on that point as well. The judges on the Supreme Court feel very differently about this issue, why would two random lawyers make any difference. Dumb. (of me) (side note, husband was also offered a clerkship with a federal judge and turned it down. not that it matters.)

  I am Mormon. This is touchy touchy touchy, so please I beg of you do not slander my religion in any way (not that you have) and I feel kind of like I’m offering you a sacred piece of information about me, one that has caused me significant pain (and even discrimination–though not what i was talking about in an earlier post) in the past. So if the dialogue continues, let’s just realize this is a holyholy for me.

  The Mormon church, as you know, broke from polygamy over 150 years ago. Not a bright spot in our history, but if you dig into the history of the religion deeply enough, necessary at the time. I wrote my history thesis on this subject, and for me it’s well a toughy. As it is for most LDS individuals.

  I’ve never watched Big Love.

  Does my religion advocate against homosexual marriage? Uh, I’m sure you watch the news. It’s not because of our “intense hatred of gays” but rather the sanctity of marriage. Once the government condones something, it has given its approval. I feel the same way about homosexual marriage as I do polygamy. Maybe that makes me a bigot. But I’d wager I’m not alone. If consenting adults (let’s leave the minors out of this because that argument has been obliterated completely) want to get married the government has to decide where to draw the line. Where do you draw the line?

  Seriously, I could blather on for an embarrassing amount of time, but I have two children, and you a newborn. Thank you for talking about this with me. I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful reply, and truly wish you nothing but the best. If you wish to continue this discussion I’m here. If not, well I’m still reading. Again, all the best.

• 45. jonniker  |  July 17th, 2009 at 11:02 am

  You know, I have to say, since you are Mormon and have genuine religious objections to it, this whole conversation changes shape. I am, in a weird way, when faced with this sort of thing directly, much more forgiving, for reasons that will become clear, and also make me flat-out eat some of my earlier words:

  a) I legitimately am not into slamming anyone’s religion. I actually have two good friends who are Mormon, and grew up in an area where there were a surprising number of Mormons. (I know, dude, that totally sounds like “I have gay friends!” HA HAHA. Am token Mormon thrower-outer) And my Mormon friends DO struggle with this, much the same as you do. So … I’m going to go ahead and backtrack a little here. I GET struggling with things religiously. I get it. I think anyone with a strict religious upbringing does. I get it. And the Mormon church, for whatever reason, seems to be a particularly tough nut to crack for a lot of people. I think it must be very, very hard for someone to be raised in a religion so deeply that your whole life you are basically … well, the word brainwashed comes to mind, but I don’t mean it in a negative way, I just mean that you hear it over and over again, so of COURSE you believe it, as well, I suppose, you should if you want to … into thinking certain things are right/wrong/a certain way. I have found this is true for people who grow up in the stricter Christian denominations, such as Mormons, Catholics and … Missouri Synod Lutherans. Which brings me to …

  b) I don’t mention this pretty much anywhere, but my mom is … well, a fundamentalist Christian. (And weirdly, a hardcore Democrat, which her church is … not that happy about, but whatever.) Missouri Synod, to be specific, and her specific church disallows, uh, dancing. And card playing. I know, right? It’s like FOOTLOOSE up in this piece. Did you seriously think ANYONE didn’t allow dancing anymore? BECAUSE I DIDN’T EITHER.

  My mom is staunchly against gay marriage for religious reasons, although she’s ALLLLLL about the civil union and doesn’t see anything wrong with her stance, because she believes she’s being equal about it. THERE I SAID IT. It drives me fucking nuts, and yes, I think my mom is a little bit prejudiced, with a slim line of bigotry whipping through there and we fight about it ALL THE TIME, because I hate it, and in this one case, I am forced to suffer what I do see as … well, a bigoted viewpoint, but of course, she doesn’t see it that way (She’s also a wee bit of a misogynist, but I sort of chalk that up to old fashioned values or … something. That point is sort of unrelated, but a bizarre family fact nonetheless that also makes me want to take pointy objects to my eyeballs.) But you know what, J? I love my mom. (I never want to say this whole piece out loud for fear that people will … dislike my mom. I know. Very odd.)

  It’s also odd for me, because I was raised with zero religion in kind of a hippie household (uh, I’m sure that’s clear. Heh) and then, as she got older, she and my stepdad are all LCMS. My sister and I are sort of scratching our heads over the whole thing, but that’s really neither here nor there. Particularly because most of the beliefs she holds now are COMPLETELY contrary to how we were raised. You know, by the SAME WOMAN. And I mean COMPLETELY. (See: gay marriage, weird misogyny, uh, super-strict religion) It’s all very, very baffling, and I can only really chalk it up to facing her mortality as she gets older. NOT THAT I AM SAYING THAT’S WHY PEOPLE CHOOSE RELIGION. Just that it might be the case with my mom. Maybe.

  c) Once again, I believe that all of this could be solved if we separated religious and civil marriage once and for all. That way, religious houses could do what they wanted, and the government could just say fine, this is what we do. My marriage is not in a church, but it’s still a marriage. This is where things get way, way murky.

  Interesting re: your husband, PS. Why did he turn it down? I will say that my friend is in a bind right now, because clerkships are a yearlong thing and when he took it, a hotshot lawyer job was almost guaranteed. And then … well, yes. The economy hit the shitter, and his job is GUARANTEED to end in, uh, four months. Sweet.

• 46. Anon  |  July 17th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

  Jonna. Thank you. I’m kind of an oddball when it comes to my church. I’ve left it twice now, and I’m pretty sure I’m here to stay now. Qualms and quirks and all.

  I was raised Mormon. My dad was a bishop and my mother was sleeping with my violin instructor. Ahhh, the fun of family dynamics. Soooo, she left the church when I was about 13 (I am the oldest of four. I have three younger brothers.) and my brothers and I followed suit. She’s always been a very free spirit (along with incredibly abusive and unbelievably cruel–different story for a different day) and when you’re younger (and hell older for that matter) that wasy is a LOT more appealing.

  I ended up back in the church when I was 17 and decided to go to BYU. I studied music, russian, history, and ballroom dance. Hence my randomness in posts. I am nothing if not consistent. I met a man when I was 21 (and still nowhere close to graduation) and moved to Amsterdam to be with him, leaving the church and BYU behind. He was cultured and well off and seemed to love me. He was the first person (and only other than my husband) that I was intimate with. He raped and beat me on a daily basis after about 6 months, and I felt like I deserved it. Twisted mess of a mess. Through fate and in my eyes God, I needed to return home for emergency surgery after about 2 years and in the healing and loving environment of my father’s home I started to believe that I didn’t deserve what I was living with, and we broke up.

  I returned to church simply for the fact that I needed an ecclesiastical endorsement to return to BYU to finish my degree. I’d already completed three years, and no other University in the nation offers Russian AND Ballroom Dance at the level BYU does. I wasn’t back “in” rather it was a means to an end. And through the process I looked at the LDS religion in a whole new light. I guess I understood it for myself for the first time. Do I feel like I truly fit in? No. I don’t think I ever will. I enjoy cursing, I miss wine, and sometimes I just want to… well anyway. Perhaps because of my upbringing I am more openminded than most, and I’ve worked it out so that Mormonism works for me. My stepmother is very similar. Which is hilarious, because my dad is as straight laced as they come, as is my husband. But they both knew what they were getting into, so let the good times roll.

  Also I’m a musician and a dancer. Skilled at both. I play and dance professionally from time to time (less now because of the babies) but have travelled extensively and performed extensively with some of the most wonderful, diverse, people I’ve ever known. Some of my good gay friends are actually Mormon. Again, another topic for another day.

  So longwinded story later, I struggle sometimes to understand and even “behave.” But when it comes right down to it, this is the life that makes me happy. This is how I communicate with that greater being that helps me get through the day. And at the end of it all, when all is said and done, if I meet whoever it is up there and I was dead wrong. That’s okay. I did the best I could with what I had, and made the decisions I did that felt true. And I’m happier in than out.

  Have we deviated from the original topic and now you know my torrid life story stranger? Heh. Homosexual marriage is a heated topic. One that my husband and I also spar about frequently.

  I don’t know that you can entirely seperate religious and civil marriages because the consequences (good or bad) ultimately effect one another. And I think that is why my church takes such a strong stand on this issue. We believe that the family unit is sacred. Mother and father figures etc. Does it work that way? Hell no. My husband and I both come from broken homes. But that it is up to us to try and hold it together as best we can. For the good of our families and the social structure to which we belong.

  I don’t know if any of that makes sense. But, I rarely do. I’m just doing the best I can, with as much love and support and professional therapy as I can get.

  Your blog is great. I do love reading it. I’m sorry I retaliated so intensely and rudely. I should have emailed you rather than incite a public fight. My fault.

  Husband turned down the clerkship because he had a family to support, and we didn’t want to go back to Utah. He works here in DC now as a lobbyist (don’t even start on me) working on promoting an environmental portfolio for a large trade association. Ahhh? Promoting the environment?! Surely he can’t be that bad of a guy huh? His law degree comes in handy and he’s able to help with legal issues that arise, but the firm life was just too much and too boring for a man who loves to be with his family. So we’ve gone rogue and so far it’s working.

  Jonna, again thank you. I take things entirely too personally, and the fact that you’ve taken time out of your crazy life to respond to DC conservative and share your views and opinions means a lot to me. Sorry if TMI. I have a tendency to do that. My real email is now inserted. Little white lie. Whatta you do. I get scared of the torches and pitch forks.

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