I was raised Mormon. My dad was a bishop and my mother was sleeping with my violin instructor. Ahhh, the fun of family dynamics. Soooo, she left the church when I was about 13 (I am the oldest of four. I have three younger brothers.) and my brothers and I followed suit. She’s always been a very free spirit (along with incredibly abusive and unbelievably cruel–different story for a different day) and when you’re younger (and hell older for that matter) that wasy is a LOT more appealing.

I ended up back in the church when I was 17 and decided to go to BYU. I studied music, russian, history, and ballroom dance. Hence my randomness in posts. I am nothing if not consistent. I met a man when I was 21 (and still nowhere close to graduation) and moved to Amsterdam to be with him, leaving the church and BYU behind. He was cultured and well off and seemed to love me. He was the first person (and only other than my husband) that I was intimate with. He raped and beat me on a daily basis after about 6 months, and I felt like I deserved it. Twisted mess of a mess. Through fate and in my eyes God, I needed to return home for emergency surgery after about 2 years and in the healing and loving environment of my father’s home I started to believe that I didn’t deserve what I was living with, and we broke up.

I returned to church simply for the fact that I needed an ecclesiastical endorsement to return to BYU to finish my degree. I’d already completed three years, and no other University in the nation offers Russian AND Ballroom Dance at the level BYU does. I wasn’t back “in” rather it was a means to an end. And through the process I looked at the LDS religion in a whole new light. I guess I understood it for myself for the first time. Do I feel like I truly fit in? No. I don’t think I ever will. I enjoy cursing, I miss wine, and sometimes I just want to… well anyway. Perhaps because of my upbringing I am more openminded than most, and I’ve worked it out so that Mormonism works for me. My stepmother is very similar. Which is hilarious, because my dad is as straight laced as they come, as is my husband. But they both knew what they were getting into, so let the good times roll.

Also I’m a musician and a dancer. Skilled at both. I play and dance professionally from time to time (less now because of the babies) but have travelled extensively and performed extensively with some of the most wonderful, diverse, people I’ve ever known. Some of my good gay friends are actually Mormon. Again, another topic for another day.

So longwinded story later, I struggle sometimes to understand and even “behave.” But when it comes right down to it, this is the life that makes me happy. This is how I communicate with that greater being that helps me get through the day. And at the end of it all, when all is said and done, if I meet whoever it is up there and I was dead wrong. That’s okay. I did the best I could with what I had, and made the decisions I did that felt true. And I’m happier in than out.

Have we deviated from the original topic and now you know my torrid life story stranger? Heh. Homosexual marriage is a heated topic. One that my husband and I also spar about frequently.

I don’t know that you can entirely seperate religious and civil marriages because the consequences (good or bad) ultimately effect one another. And I think that is why my church takes such a strong stand on this issue. We believe that the family unit is sacred. Mother and father figures etc. Does it work that way? Hell no. My husband and I both come from broken homes. But that it is up to us to try and hold it together as best we can. For the good of our families and the social structure to which we belong.

I don’t know if any of that makes sense. But, I rarely do. I’m just doing the best I can, with as much love and support and professional therapy as I can get.

Your blog is great. I do love reading it. I’m sorry I retaliated so intensely and rudely. I should have emailed you rather than incite a public fight. My fault.

Husband turned down the clerkship because he had a family to support, and we didn’t want to go back to Utah. He works here in DC now as a lobbyist (don’t even start on me) working on promoting an environmental portfolio for a large trade association. Ahhh? Promoting the environment?! Surely he can’t be that bad of a guy huh? His law degree comes in handy and he’s able to help with legal issues that arise, but the firm life was just too much and too boring for a man who loves to be with his family. So we’ve gone rogue and so far it’s working.

Jonna, again thank you. I take things entirely too personally, and the fact that you’ve taken time out of your crazy life to respond to DC conservative and share your views and opinions means a lot to me. Sorry if TMI. I have a tendency to do that. My real email is now inserted. Little white lie. Whatta you do. I get scared of the torches and pitch forks.

a) I legitimately am not into slamming anyone’s religion. I actually have two good friends who are Mormon, and grew up in an area where there were a surprising number of Mormons. (I know, dude, that totally sounds like “I have gay friends!” HA HAHA. Am token Mormon thrower-outer) And my Mormon friends DO struggle with this, much the same as you do. So … I’m going to go ahead and backtrack a little here. I GET struggling with things religiously. I get it. I think anyone with a strict religious upbringing does. I get it. And the Mormon church, for whatever reason, seems to be a particularly tough nut to crack for a lot of people. I think it must be very, very hard for someone to be raised in a religion so deeply that your whole life you are basically … well, the word brainwashed comes to mind, but I don’t mean it in a negative way, I just mean that you hear it over and over again, so of COURSE you believe it, as well, I suppose, you should if you want to … into thinking certain things are right/wrong/a certain way. I have found this is true for people who grow up in the stricter Christian denominations, such as Mormons, Catholics and … Missouri Synod Lutherans. Which brings me to …

b) I don’t mention this pretty much anywhere, but my mom is … well, a fundamentalist Christian. (And weirdly, a hardcore Democrat, which her church is … not that happy about, but whatever.) Missouri Synod, to be specific, and her specific church disallows, uh, dancing. And card playing. I know, right? It’s like FOOTLOOSE up in this piece. Did you seriously think ANYONE didn’t allow dancing anymore? BECAUSE I DIDN’T EITHER.

My mom is staunchly against gay marriage for religious reasons, although she’s ALLLLLL about the civil union and doesn’t see anything wrong with her stance, because she believes she’s being equal about it. THERE I SAID IT. It drives me fucking nuts, and yes, I think my mom is a little bit prejudiced, with a slim line of bigotry whipping through there and we fight about it ALL THE TIME, because I hate it, and in this one case, I am forced to suffer what I do see as … well, a bigoted viewpoint, but of course, she doesn’t see it that way (She’s also a wee bit of a misogynist, but I sort of chalk that up to old fashioned values or … something. That point is sort of unrelated, but a bizarre family fact nonetheless that also makes me want to take pointy objects to my eyeballs.) But you know what, J? I love my mom. (I never want to say this whole piece out loud for fear that people will … dislike my mom. I know. Very odd.)

It’s also odd for me, because I was raised with zero religion in kind of a hippie household (uh, I’m sure that’s clear. Heh) and then, as she got older, she and my stepdad are all LCMS. My sister and I are sort of scratching our heads over the whole thing, but that’s really neither here nor there. Particularly because most of the beliefs she holds now are COMPLETELY contrary to how we were raised. You know, by the SAME WOMAN. And I mean COMPLETELY. (See: gay marriage, weird misogyny, uh, super-strict religion) It’s all very, very baffling, and I can only really chalk it up to facing her mortality as she gets older. NOT THAT I AM SAYING THAT’S WHY PEOPLE CHOOSE RELIGION. Just that it might be the case with my mom. Maybe.

c) Once again, I believe that all of this could be solved if we separated religious and civil marriage once and for all. That way, religious houses could do what they wanted, and the government could just say fine, this is what we do. My marriage is not in a church, but it’s still a marriage. This is where things get way, way murky.

Interesting re: your husband, PS. Why did he turn it down? I will say that my friend is in a bind right now, because clerkships are a yearlong thing and when he took it, a hotshot lawyer job was almost guaranteed. And then … well, yes. The economy hit the shitter, and his job is GUARANTEED to end in, uh, four months. Sweet.

Point one. Completely conceded. Though in Amsterdam they are seriously considering that very thing. Lived there. Crazy city.

And I shouldn’t have brought husband into the discussion. You are 100% right on that point as well. The judges on the Supreme Court feel very differently about this issue, why would two random lawyers make any difference. Dumb. (of me) (side note, husband was also offered a clerkship with a federal judge and turned it down. not that it matters.)

I am Mormon. This is touchy touchy touchy, so please I beg of you do not slander my religion in any way (not that you have) and I feel kind of like I’m offering you a sacred piece of information about me, one that has caused me significant pain (and even discrimination–though not what i was talking about in an earlier post) in the past. So if the dialogue continues, let’s just realize this is a holyholy for me.

The Mormon church, as you know, broke from polygamy over 150 years ago. Not a bright spot in our history, but if you dig into the history of the religion deeply enough, necessary at the time. I wrote my history thesis on this subject, and for me it’s well a toughy. As it is for most LDS individuals.

I’ve never watched Big Love.

Does my religion advocate against homosexual marriage? Uh, I’m sure you watch the news. It’s not because of our “intense hatred of gays” but rather the sanctity of marriage. Once the government condones something, it has given its approval. I feel the same way about homosexual marriage as I do polygamy. Maybe that makes me a bigot. But I’d wager I’m not alone. If consenting adults (let’s leave the minors out of this because that argument has been obliterated completely) want to get married the government has to decide where to draw the line. Where do you draw the line?

Seriously, I could blather on for an embarrassing amount of time, but I have two children, and you a newborn. Thank you for talking about this with me. I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful reply, and truly wish you nothing but the best. If you wish to continue this discussion I’m here. If not, well I’m still reading. Again, all the best.

Is it religion or your fear of the disintegration of the institution of marriage to include polygamists, minors (and … I don’t know what else)? Your first statement seemed to suggest religion, but now you have no real personal issue with it … other than that. Which makes me think it’s a personal concern that you are having difficulty coming to grips with and these other reasons are getting scapegoated. Now, I will fully cop to maybe being wrong, as I don’t know you, and it’s a tough read from here. But I would find it more palatable that it was a genuine religious objection than a milder version of what I jokingly referred to in my post — that if gays are allowed to marry who ELSE is next? Five year olds? Warren Jeffs?

But! I’ll address what I think of your points without expectation that I’m going to change your mind:

– To suggest that marriage would be legally extended to minors is, to me, laughable. No, love is not love in that case. Adults — and by that, I mean people over the age of 18 — are allowed to do MANY things that minors are not allowed to do, and yet we don’t ban those things. Simple things, like buying cigarettes and alcohol, come to mind, but it can also be extended to something very important, if taken as seriously as it’s intended: the right to vote. Should we take away the right for everyone to vote? Should we take away the right for gays to vote? Because if gays are voting, next thing you know, EVERYONE will want to vote! Even children!

It just doesn’t hold a drop of water. Age of consent exists, as I said, for many, many things, and opening up the rights to two consenting adults to do something that people under the age of 18 aren’t allowed to do ANYWAY won’t change that.

Onto polygamy: no disrespect to your hotshot husband, but one lawyer’s opinion is … one lawyer’s opinion. I could come up with 5,678 lawyers who agree with your husband and 5,678 lawyers who disagree with him. If lawyers were always right, there would be no need for … well, for lawyers. Or court. And all that stuff. I mean, really. I have a family full of them, and nine times out of ten, they disagree on a lot of shit. And judges … same thing. If answers/outcomes were so clear cut, then every time a supreme court justice leaves the bench, it would be no big deal. They could replace them with anyone, right? Any lawyer! Oh, look! A smart one! You, there!

However, for shits and giggles, I did ask my lawyer neighbor this evening about your hubby’s “guarantee” and he basically chuckled at the very idea of it, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the astonishing lack of groundswell popular support for polygamy AND the fact that the Mormon church would never — and could never — come out and reverse their position without a serious public relations problem. Yes, there could be a lawsuit, but the idea that it would make it to the courts AND be supported is … very slim. And, for the record, not that it’s a lawyer pissing match, but he’s currently a clerk for a federal judge — his second such clerkship, and as you probably know, law clerks are very influential on, and work closely with, federal judges, who actually decide this kind of thing. But again, that could mean shit, just like your husband’s opinion.

(For those reading along who might not know, a law clerk is not an administrative clerk — rather, they are an actual lawyer. Usually a very, very good one. Clerkships are tough as balls to get, and are usually a stepping stone to a federal judgeship or, in the case of my friend, a federal prosecutor.)

That being said, I have deeply considered the issues of polygamy under these circumstances (and laughably, it was Roman Grant on Big Love who made me think about it. HA) and in theory, there could be worse things, and by that I mean if there are consenting, mature adults who truly want to live their life that way, I say … well, I say who am I to stop them? However, what is mostly illegal and deplorable about polygamy is the off-the-wheels fundamentalist sects that generally subscribe to it, and that, clearly, I have deep moral objections to. But again, I really scoff at the idea that it will become a genuine issue and if it does, we can deal with that when it comes. But random-ass “what if” scenarios are not nearly enough to make me reconsider my stance on gay marriage for even a fraction of a second.

And you’re wrong. Two of my best friends in the world are gay, and they love me beyond comprehension and don’t talk about me behind my back. We’ve had honest discussions about this, and gasp, they respect our rights to disagree. They believe in things that I don’t agree with, and vice versa. And guess what, I don’t talk about them behind there backs either. It’s called respectful and loving relationships.

You can say what you want, and call me a bigot and what have you, but it doesn’t change anything. My husband’s a hotshot lawyer and I guarantee that if the law allows for homosexual marriage, it has to allow for polygamy. Period. And after all, isn’t love love? Who are you to judge that it’s wrong for a man (or woman) to be married to two other people. Or for a sixteen year old to be married to a twenty three year old without parental consent? I’m just saying. Do I personally have a REAL issue with homosexual marriage. Honestly, no. I don’t. But I have an issue with the effects thereof. And there are always consequences. As much as we don’t like to believe in them anymore, they still exist. Even if we close our eyes and pretend otherwise.
I appreciated your near respectful post in response to our sparring. It was well said. And again, almost respectful. I’m not going to go fuck myself, sorry, but I am going to therapy and heh isn’t that almost as good? Best wishes.

Great post!

http://www.mamapop.com/mamapop/true-blood-recap/

Interesting stuff.

In the meantime, anyone who protests against discrimination gets called disrespectful. Oh, dear, are we disrespectful toward violence and bigotry and horrible horrible analogies involving pedophilia? Dear, dear, how…..wrong….of us? I do think I’ll go right ahead being disrespectful about such viewpoints, if standing up for what I believe is right and against what I believe is hateful and mean and dehumanizing is disrespectful. I notice that when anti-gay-marriage people stand up for what they believe is right, and use the pedophilia analogies, they don’t consider themselves disrespectful.